chirpingtiger:

jess-b-xo:

ruffaled:

chirpingtiger:

In case anyone forgot that they actually watched this part of the movie: Tony’s real motivations for the Accords.

From his own mouth.

Not to save people, or rein in the team, or keep more accidents from happening, or provide accountability.

It was all so he could get Pepper back, but still have a reason – an excuse – to build his suits.

He’s
willing to shackle his entire team with a document co-authored by a man
who is known for hating enhanced beings, because he doesn’t feel like
compromising with the woman he supposedly loves on no longer making the machines that have nearly gotten both of them killed on multiple occasions.

Tony Stark, you are scum.

Either the entire scene, and the nuances of the movie, flew over your head or you’re purposely trying to start shit again by putting your post on the pro Tony tag. For your sake, I hope it’s the latter.

Guess OP forgot that this was ALSO actually part of the movie? i.e. Tony’s Real Motivations for the Accords. From his own mouth. Where he brings up Charlie Spencer to remind the team that while the Avengers may save the day fighting bad guys, there is still a lot of collateral damage left behind, and there are still GOOD, INNOCENT people who are killed in the conflict. (And the reason why Tony brings Charlie Spencer up as a specific victim is because Charlie was a young man who had so much to offer the world to make it a better place. That’s literally the mission of the Avengers – make the world a better, safer place.)

Now, lemme sum up the plot of Iron Man 1 for ya real quick, OP: Accountability.

And here’s a quote from IM1: “I saw that I had become part of a system that is comfortable with zero accountability” Tony says, right before shutting down his weapons manufacturing division of Stark Industries – against the protests of everybody else – after discovering his weapons were falling into the wrong hands and were being used to terrorise innocent civilians. Tony held himself accountable for this and actively tried to do something about it (even though Obadiah Stane was the one who was double-dealing Stark weapons under the table to terrorists behind Tony’s back). Tony built a suit of advanced armour and personally flew to Gulmira to liberate the innocent civilians and destroy all of his weapons to prevent them from being used against said innocent civilians.

Now, how does that relate to Captain America: Civil War? Well, Tony has once again realised that he – and the Avengers – are beginning to become comfortable with zero accountability. The Avengers are essentially a US-based paramilitary team of super-powered, enhanced individuals who ignore sovereign borders and basically invade other countries to fight bad guys. No cooperation with the governments of those countries. They just show up unannounced. Then after the battle is done, and they “save the day,” they all go home – leaving collateral damage behind in their wake (however, Tony actually contributes his resources to help pay for and clean up the damages caused). The Avengers face no real consequences and don’t answer to anybody for the damages caused. They aren’t held accountable.

This isn’t okay with 117 countries.

117 countries drafted and co-signed the Accords – not Ross (Ross was the one that presented the already drafted Accords to the team because he is the US Secretary of State – there is no way he wouldn’t be involved with the Accords.) Also, King T’Chaka of Wakanda was apparently the one who co-authored the Accords. He was also the one spearheading the campaign, appearing on television and publicly calling for the Avengers to be held accountable for their actions.

Now, back to Tony – and OP’s shitty ass, biased, fake “analysis” of his motivations for signing the Accords.

“Not to save people, or rein in the team, or keep more accidents from happening, or provide accountability.”

Refer to the video I provided above, where Tony’s argument actually includes all of these things – debunking OP’s ridiculous claim that he ‘doesn’t care about anyone else.’ Here’s some direct quotes “from Tony’s own mouth” which  discredits OP’s dumb ass analysis:
– Tony has an entire monologue expressing guilt over not being able ‘to save’ everybody – people like Charlie Spencer.
– “We need to be put in check (…) If we can’t accept limitations, we’re boundary-less, we’re no better than the bad guys” i.e. ‘rein in the team’
– Expresses guilt over a mistake he made (with Ultron). Sees the Accords as a way to stop ‘more accidents from happening’
– “When I realised what my weapons were capable of in the wrong hands I shut it down – stopped manufacturing” i.e. a call-back to Iron Man 1 where Tony ‘provided accountability’ for his mistakes and actively did something to fix it i.e. a clear parallel between Tony’s motivations in Iron Man 1 and Civil War.

“It was all so he could get Pepper back, but still have a reason – an excuse – to build his suits. He’s willing to shackle his entire team with a document co-authored by a man who is known for hating enhanced beings, because he doesn’t feel like compromising with the woman he supposedly loves on no longer making the machines that have nearly gotten both of them killed on multiple occasions.”

Nope. Wrong. He isn’t “willing to shackle his entire team”  beCAUSE ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTEEN COUNTRIES SIGNED THE ACCORDS BECAUSE THEY ARE SICK AND TIRED OF THIS AMERICAN-BASED TEAM OF SUPER-POWERED INDIVIDUALS IGNORING THEIR BORDERS AND BASICALLY INVADING THEIR COUNTRIES TO FIGHT BAD GUYS WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION TO ENTER THEIR FUCKING COUNTRIES!!!! THAT IS NOT A FUCKING UNREASONABLE REQUEST!!! THESE COUNTRIES HAVE LEGITIMATE FUCKING CONCERNS!!! AND THE AVENGERS CAN’T JUST IGNORE A DOCUMENT PUT TOGETHER BY THE UNITED NATIONS AND SIGNED BY 117 COUNTRIES!!!!! WHAT TONY IS ACTUALLY WILLING TO DO IS COMPROMISE WITH THE REST OF THE FUCKING WORLD AND ACCEPT ACCOUNTABILITY FOR HIS AND THE TEAM’S MISTAKES!!!! AND IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCH THE FUCKING MOVIE WITH YOUR BIASED HATE-GOGGLES OFF YOUR FUCKING FACE OR ACTUALLY LISTEN TO WHAT THE DIRECTORS HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID ABOUT THIS MOVIE THEN YOU’D FUCKING REALISE THAT BOTH TONY AND STEVE’S STANCES RE: THE ACCORDS ARE BOTH FUCKING VALID AND THAT NEITHER SIDE IS COMPLETELY WRONG OR COMPLETELY RIGHT!!!

Also, Tony signing the Accords wasn’t “all so he could get Pepper back” – it is one of the reasons why he chooses to sign, yes, but it is certainly NOT the main or only reason. And Tony wanting to be able to balance his personal life and Avengers life isn’t actually a bad thing. He’s a man who has already made a lot of sacrifices since becoming Iron Man, and not wanting to lose the woman he loves isn’t selfish. His compromise with Pepper – the woman he absolutely loves – in Iron Man 3 wasn’t to stop making the suits altogether. He promised Pepper he’d “shave the suits down a little bit” so he could focus on getting better and deal with all of his issues that were destroying him on the inside. (Help me out. How does that saying go? “You can’t help others until you help yourself” ???)

Furthermore, he isn’t looking for an “excuse” to build his suits. The REASON why he can’t stop being Iron Man is because he is driven by the need to PROTECT PEOPLE. His entire character motivation has always been about protecting people. In fact, Peter Parker’s line in Civil War actually sums Tony up perfectly: “When you can do the things that I can, but you don’t, and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you.” And Peter’s speech also mirrors Tony’s own speech to Nick Fury in Age of Ultron about the prophetic vision Wanda forced him to see and how he ‘saw all the Avengers dead because of him – because he didn’t do all he could’ to save them. Everything bad that has ever happened (whether its actually his fault or not) Tony blames on himself. He puts the weight of the entire world on his shoulders because he believes he has a responsibility to protect others.

He will NEVER STOP being Iron Man, no matter how many times he may try to walk away from it, because protecting people is the very essence of Tony Stark’s character.

Original Poster, you are dumb.

Goodness, these replies keep getting eaten by the notes. You guys are going
to have to start tagging me when you answer if this keeps up.

@jess-b-xo

I’ll start this by saying that Tony doesn’t have to remind the rest of the
team that despite saving the day, there are innocent civilian casualties
whenever they fight. They are all well aware that good, innocent people
die in giant battles like this. If anyone, it’s Tony that tends not to realize
this until it’s shoved in his face.

“And the reason why Tony brings Charlie Spencer up as a specific victim
is because Charlie was a young man who had so much to offer the world to make
it a better place.”

You know what other young man with a lot to offer the world was killed
before he had the chance to make the world a better place?

Pietro.

The little orphan boy who grew up trying to protect his sister and the other
people of his country against the forces who were attacking them, dropping
bombs on them, and murdering them in the streets. The boy who agreed to let
himself undergo an experimental procedure for even a chance that he
could come out on the other side powerful enough to stand up to the people that
were terrorizing his country. The kid who was using his super powers to get food
and clothing for the poor and homeless of his city before he got
swept up by Ultron.

The boy who fought with the Avengers, and gave his life
to save people from Ultron’s attack. But do we ever see him brought up as one
of the countless victims in Sokovia?

No, because his death doesn’t matter to Tony. And apparently neither do the
countless other innocent Sokovian victims, which he never bothers looking up or
mentioning.

Tony brings up Charlie Spence to show the rest of the team “hey look there
were American casualties too,” because that was a fact that Tony hadn’t
realized until he was confronted by the boy’s mother. That’s the fact that made
him start caring.

I hate to say it, but Tony is very America-centralized in his thinking.

Even in Iron Man 1, he doesn’t start being concerned about where his bombs
are ending up or who they’re being used on until there are American casualties
because of them. He even comments on this in specific, in the scene right after
he gets back from his ordeal with the Ten Rings, which you bothered to quote in
your own argument.

And I’ll admit, your quote is lovely, but you left off the opening line:

“I saw young Americans killed by the very weapons I created to defend
them and protect them. And I saw that I had become part of a system that is
comfortable with zero-accountability.”

Note, this is also the man that said:

“I guarantee you the day weapons are no longer needed to keep the peace,
I’ll start making bricks and beams for baby hospitals.”

“My old man had a philosophy: peace means having a bigger stick than the
other guy.”

“They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to fire. I
respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once.”

Tony knew what he was doing. You don’t build and sell bombs with the mindset
that they’re gonna be put on display somewhere. You sell them knowing that somebody
is going to use them to kill other human beings. 

Tony always knew that his bombs were being used on people, it just
didn’t matter to him until they started being used on Americans.

He brings up an American casualty because that’s what finally made the scope
of Ultron sink in for him – the fact that is wasn’t just some random people in
a third world country that got killed in the fallout.

It was a young man from his country who had gone over there to help
and had lost his life as well.

(This is why his “making amends” for Sokovia is providing money to American
Grad Students instead of helping the hundreds of homeless Sokovians rebuild and
recover overseas.)

And I hate to say it, but bringing up Charlie doesn’t sway a lot of people
in that room. Mostly because they all cared before one American kid made
his way into the total.

In fact, one of the people he’s giving this lecture to is WANDA MAXIMOFF who
lost her entire world in the Sokovia attack. Her whole family is dead.
Her friends and neighbors were the names filling the victim list. Her home, her
city, is a CRATER. She lost everything.

She joined the Avengers because she had nothing left to go back to.

And Tony is standing here telling her that she needs to realize that there
were civilian casualties in the Ultron fight.

I don’t know about you, but to me, that’s kinda sick.

This is incredibly personal to her, and always has been, enough that she
would turn a blind eye on the fact that Tony (to her knowledge) murdered her
parents when she was ten and has been terrorizing Sokovia with his suits for
years, in order to team up with him and the rest of the Avengers and stop
Ultron before he hurt anyone else.

And she’s not the only one.

Steve was a soldier in World War 2. He knows that any form of
conflict will always bring collateral, which is why he’s spent the past year
with his team chasing down and stopping the crazy people who are blowing things
up and releasing deadly diseases on innocent populations in order to “get back
at” the Avengers for what they’ve lost. Civilian casualties are not some kind
of a new concept to him – he’s been actively trying to prevent them
from happening for the past year.

Sam came into this from a para-rescue unit. He was the one picking
up and saving people from combat situations.

Rhody has personally stepped in to make sure Tony didn’t cause
civilian casualties before. He doesn’t need this lecture.

Natasha is here because she hurt innocents – “I’ve got red in my
ledger and I’m looking to blot that out.” Being here with the Avengers and
protecting people is literally her making amends for the innocent blood on her
hands.

The only person who wasn’t acutely aware of the innocents who got hurt
thanks to their actions was Tony. And Tony isn’t here because the Avengers need
to take responsibility for the damage they’ve caused and the lives they’ve
ended.

He’s here to alleviate his guilt by saying “look I have rules now so if
people still get hurt by something I do, I’m not to blame.” “Look, the UN needs
me as Iron Man to go blow something up, so when I make another suit Pepper
can’t be mad at me.” “Look, I was just doing what 117 countries all agreed that
I could do. If you aren’t happy about it don’t confront me, go yell at them.”

Tony pushes the blame and thinks this solves the problem, because Tony
canonically doesn’t know how to be responsible for his actions.

Rhody even tells him: “You are institutionally incapable of being
responsible.”

The Accords aren’t really about accountability. Because like Steve says in
that very scene you linked, the Accords are about who calls the shots
for the Avengers, and who gets to control them as an elite fighting unit.

Steve: “Tony, if somebody dies on your watch you don’t give up.”
Tony: “Who says we’re giving up?”
Steve: “We are if we don’t take responsibility for our actions. This document
just shifts the blame.”

And that’s exactly what it does. If you look at the Accords, they don’t make
the Avengers accountable. They just change the who takes the blame for the
consequences of their actions from the Avengers personally to the World
Security Council portion of the UN. (Which, may I remind you, tried to solve
the New York crisis by throwing a nuke at it.) At the end of the day,
the Accords are about who the group of people accepting the slap on the wrist
is – because we all know that’s the only consequence for these kinds of
things that they’ll get – and the Accords makes it so that it’s the UN being
scolded instead of the Avengers.

Steve is not okay with this for multiple reasons. The first is that it is
quite literally Tony refusing to be held accountable by pushing the
blame to someone higher up; and second because he’s dealt with the UN before.

I’ll remind you again, Steve fought in World War 2.

You know, the World War where the UN kinda sat on their hands and debated
back and forth and stalled while Hitler was throwing millions of
innocent people into concentration camps, because the politicians didn’t feel
like getting involved? The war where politicians with their own agendas who
refused to take action led to the deaths of literally thousands of people
before anyone got involved? The war where his own government would
rather use their super soldier as a celebrity TV star than let him go
single-handedly storm Nazi bases and rescue hundreds of Allied prisoners from
HYDRA weapons factories like he was designed to do?

Steve knows damn well that he can’t trust these people to operate for the
greater good because at the end of the day they will always pick the move that
gets them re-elected, not necessarily the one that saves innocent people.

On top of that, it was just revealed that a good portion of the UN was
HYDRA.

Let me run that by you again, in case you didn’t catch it.

A GOOD PORTION OF THE UN WAS WORKING FOR HYDRA.

The people who have been drafting up the Accords for God-knows how long were
working with an organization that wants the Avengers all put on leashes and
banned from entering their countries to mess up their human experimentation.
The ones who, in Winter Soldier, created a “safety” program that “solved the
world’s problems” by sending military airships around the globe and murdering
everyone that they deemed to be a potential threat.

The Accords still seem like a “good way to protect innocent people” to you?

Additionally, the Accords state that the enhanced individuals will “report
to the leaders of their current country of residence.” Which means that no,
they won’t be reporting to the “117 countries that drafted and co-signed
the Accords” as some kind of unbiased force for the good of all, they will all
be reporting to Ross, in America, as his personal lap dogs for
whatever projects that he feels are in his country’s (or his personal) best
interest. Because they all currently live IN AMERICA. And according to those same
Accords, they aren’t allowed to move out of the country without the agreement
of the ENTIRE UN.

And if they screw up, the American government will be held responsible, not
the Avengers. They’re still not being held accountable for their
actions, and NOTHING is being done by anybody to prevent civilian
casualties.

This entire movie is Tony working desperately to alleviate his guilty
conscience.

He doesn’t know how to take responsibility for his actions, so he pushes the
blame. Ultron is the AVENGERS fault. Sokovia was the AVENGERS fault. They are
ALL to blame for this. So they ALL need to sign the Accords, so he can
personally sign over his title as “owner” of the Avengers to the UN, and then
it’s the UN’s fault whenever the Avengers accidentally create
casualties.

“The Avengers face no real consequences and don’t answer to anybody for
the damages caused.”

The only Avenger who doesn’t face consequences for what he does is
Tony.

Team Cap winds up at the Raft (in incredibly inhumane holding
conditions, I might add) for “breaking the Accords.”

And yet Tony, who also willingly broke the Accords, as well as
kidnapped a fifteen-year-old enhanced boy to take to a fight in another country
(without explaining even the beginning of what was going on or having him
sign the Accords, mind you) doesn’t get in any trouble. Ross even tells him
point blank “you’re damn lucky you’re not in one of these cells.”

And yet, he’s not. He’s allowed to walk free.

Because he’s Tony Stark, and he never gets in any real kind of trouble for
what he does.

In fact, immediately after that conversation, he goes and breaks the Accords
again by going after Steve. And again, he gets off the hook while
Steve and Bucky have to go on the run.

Real support for his “taking accountability” document, right there.

And I think it’s ridiculous that I need to point this out to you, but LAGOS
WASN’T WANDA’S FAULT.

There was a terrorist who set off a bomb with the intent of blowing up an
entire marketplace full of innocents. Wanda stepped in and tried to save
everyone on the ground by lifting the bomb into the air to try and clear it of
everything. She lost control over it because it’s a live explosive that
she’s trying to control with her mind and the resulting blast arced out
and hit a nearby building. Now it was unfortunate that said building was a
hotel that happened to have people in it, but she was doing the right thing,
and it was in no way her fault.

This is not the Avengers running amok and killing innocents. This is the
Avengers dealing with a terrorist who had just tried to release a deadly
disease into a packed city, and who lit off a bomb in a crowded market, all
with the intent of killing thousands of innocent people, if not more,
with his actions.

And the country’s government had done nothing.

The Avengers stepped in because Lagos wasn’t taking action against the
terrorist, and they managed to bring the casualty total from a few thousand
down to eleven.

And Wanda got blamed for those eleven as if she’d been prancing around the
streets throwing lit sticks of dynamite.

You’re looking at the situation from the same angle that the UN wanted
everyone in the MCU to see it, and ignoring what actually happened.

Lagos was doing nothing to stop this man. They’d left their civilians to
fend for themselves with possibly some help from the local police force.

The Avengers stepped in to rescue thousands of people from this, and weren’t
able to save eleven of them from the attack.

They are not bothering to wait for personal invitations from whoever is
currently in charge because at the end of the day, saving people is more
important to them than bureaucracy, and they don’t care who the politicians
think is worth saving or not. They’re going to save everybody that they can.

They are only breaking rules when those rules are putting innocents at risk.
They are not “ignoring sovereign borders and basically invading other
countries to fight bad guys” whenever they feel like it, they are stepping in
to save innocents in the situations when their own governments have deserted
them or cannot help them.

And I will point out that everyone was apparently chill with this until
Ultron happened, and then they all looked at what remained of Sokovia and
decided that the Avengers might not have been such a great idea after all, if
their idea of “saving people” was building a self-aware death machine.

This only became a problem after Tony decided to take matters into
his own hands and build Ultron.

Your whole argument about Tony trying to make sure his team “isn’t operating
without boundaries” is frankly quite ridiculous, because at the end of the day
the only one operating without boundaries on that team is Tony “I don’t have
time for a morality debate” Stark, and that’s how it’s always been.

The only one of the Avengers that needs to be put in check is him.